Bob Lowry on When Pool pH Crashes

Welcome And Bob Lowry Intro SPEAKER_00 1:05 Hi and welcome to the Best of the Pool Guy Podcast Show. In this episode, I sit down with chemistry expert Bob Lowry, and we discuss how low pH will affect your pool. Bob Lowry, of course, was one of the leading pioneers in the pool industry. He passed away in 2021.

But his legacy and also his teachings live on in the pool industry. You're going to find a lot of great insight from these best of the pool game podcast shows with Bob Lowry. Leslie’s Pro Account Mention SPEAKER_00 1:32 Pool Service Pro. Open a Leslie's wholesale account today and receive wholesale pricing on products you use every day.

Leslie's Pool Supply offers convenient locations that are open seven days a week. Another great benefit of opening a Leslie's wholesale account is Leslie's referral program. Get referred to a customer looking for weekly pool service. Save time and money and grow your pool service route and become a Leslie's When pH Drops Too Low SPEAKER_00 1:51 Pro.

Let's talk about something that we don't hear much about, but recently I had a member of my group, he had a vinyl pool that had a pH of six, which probably would be lower than that in a lot of cases, depending on the test kit he was using. And low pH typically is not a problem you hear about high pH is something that we hear about a lot more, but low pH can be a big problem also. What happens if the pH gets too low in a pool for a long period of time? Corrosion, Etching, And Metal Stains SPEAKER_01 2:22 Well, when the pH is low, the water gets to be what we say is corrosive or aggressive.

And it can in a in a plaster pool, it can dissolve or start to etch the plaster. And so you get the plaster instead of being real nice and smooth, it becomes kind of rough. So we get etch plaster, we get corrosion of equipment. So the metallic parts that are in the any of the components in the system, whether it's the heater header or the impeller on the pump or whatever, whatever is in metal in the pool can start to dissolve also.

And then the dissolved metal gets into the water and it is invisible until it gets to a certain level. And that certain level is what we call the saturation point. When it reaches the saturation point for those conditions, then the water can't hold anymore, even though more is dissolving. When it does that, then it starts to precipitate the metals and we start getting staining.

Usually, when we get staining, it's because we've dissolved some of the metal components in the pool. The other reason, of course, is if you're getting metal in the incoming water. And copper and iron are both allowed to be in drinking water. They're allowed to be at a low level.

So when you add water to the pool, when it dilutes and everything, you know, it's not such a big problem. But eventually you can build metals up to the point where they can stain the pool. So it is something that once in a while, as a service tech, maybe every couple of months, you should run a test for iron and copper and see if the level's gone up. SPEAKER_00 4:11 And I don't want to plug too many products, but I have the new color Q Pro 9 2X or 2X Pro 9, and I really like the fact that that photometer tests for copper and iron.

I think if you're a full professional, you should have some way of testing for copper and iron in the water as part of your regiment. SPEAKER_01 4:29 Absolutely. You you know, I and I often tell guys, listen, you know, you're gonna tell me you don't want to spend six or seven hundred dollars on a test system, but you just spend $40,000 or $50,000 on the truck that you drive around in to take care of the pools, you know, and and how do you justify that when you can't spend $500 on a test custom test system? So get a good test system.

You test the water every time you go to every pool. If you're getting bad results and adding chemicals based on those bad results, are isn't that test kit affecting your life, your livelihood, your reputation, and and you're letting it fall on a on a cheap piece of junk test kit? You know, get a good one, get some good answers, so you can add the right chemicals to the pool and do your job right. SPEAKER_00 5:22 Yeah, exactly.

Why Vinyl And Fiberglass Drift Lower SPEAKER_00 5:23 And so back to the low pH here on a vinyl and fiberglass pool, why is it that the pH seems to always drift lower on those surface types? And I know that a lot of fiberglass manufacturers will avoid the warranty on you if you use tablets, three-inch triclour tablets, because I think because those lower the pH, of course. And so why with that pool surface type are we all running into lower pH? SPEAKER_01 5:47 The vinyl, I guess we should back up.

On a plaster pool, we've got some alkalinity and some calcium coming out of the pool itself and dissolving into the water. It's just a little bit, but it's enough to be to keep the water in balance. But what happens is with a vinyl pool, there isn't any source. And so once the pH and alkalinity get a little bit low, the water becomes aggressive and is looking for something to dissolve.

And if there's any metal that start dissolving it, if if if interestingly enough, low pH actually affects the vinyl more than chlorine level does. When I was at Leslie's as their technical director, one of the things I did was I took pieces of vinyl and I literally poured liquid chlorine on top of vinyl fresh out of the jug onto the vinyl and it didn't do anything. On the other piece of vinyl, I put one drop of murianic acid and the color disappeared out of the vinyl. One drop.

And it disappeared to the color. So low pH is no good for vinyl. But it goes low because there's not a source of alkalinity and calcium that's coming out of the walls. SPEAKER_00 7:44 Is that true also for hot tubs?

You know, the above-ground fiberglass hot tubs. I'm always running into those with low pH Spa Chemistry And Swimmer Irritation SPEAKER_00 7:51 also. Or is that the bather load? What could be causing that in like a 350-gallon above ground hot tub?

SPEAKER_01 8:00 Well, that can be that can be the chlorine source. If you if it's a busy, if it's a busy spa, you've got either trichlor or dichlor being put in there, both of which are a little bit acidic. A lot of times we see spas, the pH going very high all the time because we've got aeration and turbulence, which raises the pH a lot. It may be that if you've got a spa like that, it may not be used very much, and then or it may be used a lot, and they're putting a lot of chlorine in there, and the the chlorine level is actually lowering the the pH and the alkalinity.

And don't forget, our bodies have a pH of about 7.45, believe it or not. Overall, blood system, everything, 7.45. So keeping the pH either direction, 0.3, plus or minus from that is is okay. But when you get outside of that range, it can become irritating.

So we're looking at 7.8 or 7.2 being a problem. So when you get to 7.2 or when you get to 7.8, you can have body irritation. SPEAKER_00 9:17 On both ends of the spectrum. SPEAKER_01 9:20 That's right.

And you combine that with a little bit of combined chlorine or chloramines, and chloramines, believe it or not, are irritants, and you can smell them at 0.2 parts per million, which is the reason that we say that combined chlorine should not be greater than 0.2 parts per million, because it becomes an irritant at that level, and you can also smell it. SPEAKER_00 9:47 And so the best way to raise low pH. Now, I'll throw this out there. I've done this, and a lot of the members of my group, they'll Raising pH The Right Way SPEAKER_00 9:53 go to Walmart and they'll buy 20 mule team borax and they'll put it into the raise the pH of the pool.

And you're adding borax to the pool at the same time at some level, but what's the best way to raise the pH? I think the borax product, in my opinion, is a great way to do it if it's really low and you're wanting to raise the pH. But you wouldn't be using baking soda. That's that's a lot of people are selling that as something that raises pH.

I know even on the bag of the baking soda, you know, if you buy the the 10-pound bag at Costco, it'll have a it says, you know, the raised pH, add this to the pool, but that's not that's a misnomer, right? SPEAKER_01 10:30 Yeah, it really is. Bicarb, so that you can get a little bit of an understanding, the strongest solution you could make of bicarb would have a pH of 8.3. So that's the highest it can go.

Even if you you put a whole bag of of bicarb in your spa, the pH isn't gonna go over eight point three. And you can see if your pH was already seven point two or seven point four, if you added some bicarb to the water, it's really not gonna change the pH very much. You know, because it's not very strong. You know, soda ash has a pH of 13.

So when you add it, there's a big difference between 7.5 and 13. So it raised the pH a lot. But bicarb does not raise the pH unless the pH is very low. If the pH was say 6.8 and and you put in some bicarb, it's gonna raise the pH, but not not very much.

If you if you added enough to get the alkalinity to the right spot, the pH would still be low. So so you can't use bicarb to raise the pH. If you ever get the pH below uh about five, you can't put bicarb in anyway. It won't it won't raise the pH at all.

Because below a pH of five, when you put bicarb in, it gases off as CO2. And so so it doesn't work. In any case, I would not use bicarb to raise pH at all. You can use borax, it adds a little bit to alkalinity.

Borax has a pH of about 9.2. So when you add it, it's it raises the pH more than bicarb would, but less than what soda hash might. And it doesn't appear to affect your alkalinity much, but as you might have guessed, you know, we make a an adjustment to the saturation index for cyanic acid. There is also an adjustment you have to make to the saturation index for borate.

Borates And Saturation Index Nuance SPEAKER_01 13:00 If you do put borates in your pool, your alkalinity figure is uh your total alkalinity reading is actually lower than than you think it is. SPEAKER_00 13:11 Is there a percentage uh number for that? Like offhand? SPEAKER_01 13:14 Um no, it doesn't work that way.

It does for cyanuric acid. We can use basically one-third, but because it's a buffer to keep the pH from going high, the higher the pH, the more it affects it. At a pH of 7.5, the if 50 parts per million of borate would only affect the reading by about six or seven parts per million. But as you get up to seven, eight, or eight, now it affects at about twenty.

And if you get up above eight point two, it affects at about forty. SPEAKER_00 13:46 And we should also mention that soda ash also raises alkalinity as well as pH. SPEAKER_01 13:52 Yes, and it raises it ounce per ounce, it raises it more than bicarb does. SPEAKER_00 13:58 So if you have a pool with low alkalinity and low pH, the so soda ash is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 14:04 That's right. That's right. When when you need to raise both, use soda ash, and when you need to to just raise alkalinity, use bicarb. But don't forget that you can aerate to raise pH.

Yeah. And so a lot of times I tell Aeration Trick For Spas SPEAKER_01 14:21 people, listen, if you're if your if your pH is low and your alkalinity is low, you can add just bicarb to get to the exact alkalinity that you want. And then aerate till you get to pH of 7-5, and you'll have a perfectly balanced pool. SPEAKER_00 14:38 Yeah.

So if you have a hot tub that has a really low pH, let's say it's at six, and alkalinity is at 40, put some baking soda in there and then turn that thing on and let it run for a couple hours. That's right. That's right. SPEAKER_01 14:49 Put enough baking soda to get the alkalinity up to 80 or 90, and then and then turn the turn the aerator on, you know, the blower and the and the jets and whatever.

And in a spa, you'll probably raise the pH up to 7.5 in about a half an hour. SPEAKER_00 15:08 Yeah. SPEAKER_01 15:09 It's really a short time. SPEAKER_00 15:11 And then I guess lastly, the lower the pH, I mean, I know the cyaneric acid is a big factor in the chlorine pH Versus Chlorine Power With CYA SPEAKER_00 15:18 kill factor, but you mentioned that at the lower pH, it makes the chlorine, the killing part of chlorine more effective.

So a pool at 7.6, technically, let's say the cyaneric acid level is in range at 50 parts a million. Pool at 7.6 or 7.4, the chlorine will have a a better killing ability than a pool at 8.0. SPEAKER_01 15:39 You know, probably not, because we used to we used to believe that all of the chlorine was, you know, subject to that that fraction that I told you, 50% HOCL and 50% OCL minus. But the problem is that when 97% of the chlorine is bound to bound to cyanuric acid, and you've only got 3%, it changes things a little bit because the concentration of cyanuric acid and the concentration of chlorine changes that 3% figure.

It it almost doesn't matter as far as it being effective. The real important thing is to is to get the proper level of chlorine in there. So it doesn't necessarily affect the killing power of 7.5 versus 7.8. The killing power is not going to be that much different, but you need to have enough chlorine in there to prevent the algae.

And again, it goes back to that percentage rather than doing what the pool stores say and keeping two to four parts per million of chlorine in the water, it doesn't always work. You know, two it is two to four, but you're going to find in most cases that the minimum level needs to be nearer to four than it does two. SPEAKER_00 17:06 And so the guys that are obsessed about keeping the pH at 7.4, 7.6, they're pretty much it's not making a big difference. You know, I think in the old old days we were always taught that a high pH makes the chlorine less effective, but as the old Yes, and we believe that because as the as the pH goes up, the effectiveness of the chlorine goes down.

SPEAKER_01 17:29 So at a pH of of 7.8 or or 8.0, you've only got about 20% of the chlorine in the killing form and 80% in the non-killing form. That doesn't matter so much because of the influence of cyanuric acid and the concentration of chlorine and cyanuric acid. So it it doesn't matter that much anymore. But we still need to balance the pool.

It's not to say that you can keep a pH up around eight and and still have have good killing power and everything. You will, but you're going to have bathers unhappy because we got above that 7.8 level where it starts to irritate bodies. So, you know, you don't want to run a pool at 7.8 because you're only you're right on the borderline of where the water now becomes bathers will notice the pH. Either they get they get itchy skin, they get irritated eyes, or something like that, because the pH is is 7.8 and all it needs to go is to 7.9, and now you irritate the bathers.

You know, at 7.5, you've got 0.3 before you can have a problem. SPEAKER_00 18:42 If you're looking for more podcasts, you can find those by go to my website, swingprolearning.com on the banner. Click on the podcast icon. Where To Find More Help SPEAKER_00 18:49 That'll take you to a drop down menu with over 2,000 podcasts.

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